Deniz

[Steffi]

Hi Deniz! This is your thread

Thema

[denizekindaglar@hotmail.com]

Thanks! Waiting for the post-shift material

[Steffi]

Hi Deniz!

Here it comes:

📌 What was it like when you saw through the self illusion? Did you have a shift?

📌 Take a mug or cup and place it in front of you on the table.
Look at it as you would normally look at something. Use your senses as you normally would.

1. What do you see? What is the pure sensory information? What is just seen? Write it down.
2. What can you not see?
3. What about three-dimensionality? Can you see it? Does it look round? What does the opening look like without interpretation? Write it down.
4. What is added by thoughts? Write that down too.

📌 Next we will look at thoughts. Find out how thinking works.

Look at your thoughts directly. Sit comfortably, relax and just let the thoughts run. Here are some questions, take 5 minutes for each one. You don’t have to do the exercise all at once. Maybe you already know this exercise. Do it anyway. ☺

Please number the answers according to the questions so that I know what your answers refer to.

1. Where do the thoughts come from and where do they go? Wait curiously for the next thought and see.
2. Can you predict what thought will come next?
3. Can you prevent it from appearing if you don’t like it?
4. Can you eliminate a thought once it has appeared?
5. Can you make the decision NOT to think?
6. Decide to think a particular thought. What happens if you look carefully?
7. Is the thought “I” a special kind of thought that can think other thoughts? Or does it come from the same place as the other thoughts?
8. What can thoughts do?
9. Can thoughts perceive anything?
10. Do you find someone who thinks, or does it all happen by itself, without control by a thinker?

📌 Today you will look at what memories and future plans actually are.
1. What is the memory made of?
2. When does the memory appear?
3. What exactly is the difference between a “general” thought and a “memory thought”?
4. What exactly shows that a “memory thought” refers to something that has happened?

Then look at a thought about the future.
5. What does the future thought consist of?
6. What is the ‘future thought’ made of?
7. When does the future thought appear?
8. What exactly is the difference between a ‘general thought’ and a ‘future thought’?
9. From what exactly can it be inferred that the ‘future thought’ refers to something that will happen?
10. Now let us compare a thought of the past with a thought of the future.
11. What exactly is the difference between thoughts about the past and the future?
12. If there is a difference, how is this difference recognised?

Look at what actually happens and not what thoughts tell you.

📌
What actually happens when a choice is made and a decision is made? (The answer is not, there is no I to choose).

Sit back inside and just observe. How do you choose what to wear in the morning? What happens when you decide what to eat and drink for lunch? Where you go? Observe these small everyday situations and describe exactly what happens.

Then take more complex decisions you make throughout the day. Find the exact moment when the decision is made.

How does “making a decision” work?

📌
### Thoughts
Often what we think seems as real as the table we are sitting at. When a good film is playing in our mind’s cinema, we forget, as in every good film, that the contents of thoughts are not actually there as things.

Watch it once:

Close your eyes.

Imagine an apple, in all its details. What colour is the skin, does it have spots, rotten spots, is the stem still attached?

Take the apple in your hand, feel its weight. Smell it, what does it smell like?

Then take a knife and cut it open.

Feel the slightly sticky fruit juice on your fingers.

Put a piece in your mouth – how does the apple taste? Is it firm to the bite or rather mealy?

Open your eyes.

Where is the rest of the apple?

### Body sensations
Body sensations are often mistaken for something they are not. For example
a body sensation can feel like it is the self.

You may find it difficult to work with sensations because they seem unpleasant.

Take a closer look.

Pinch yourself so that there is a little pain and feel the body sensation. You can also
You can also sit on something that causes slight pain.

Again, feel the body sensation.

1. Is the sensation the direct experience of *pain* or the direct experience of a body sensation?
2. What in the pure sensation itself is *pain* or conveys that it *is* painful?
3. Is the bodily sensation itself *pleasant* or *unpleasant*?
4. Does the bodily sensation have any properties?
5. Does the body sensation itself convey any information?
6. Thoughts about *pain* occur. Can the *pain* itself be found?
7. Is there a direct experience of *pain*?
8. Is a thought aware of a sensation?
9. Is sensation aware of a thought?
10. Is a thought aware of another thought?

📌
The body is a fascinating experience. Often the feeling of “I” is connected to the body. Let’s look at what can be found when we explore the feeling of the body.

Sit or lie down for about 15 minutes.

Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images.

1. Can you tell how big the body is?
2. Does the body have a weight or girth?
3. Does your body have a shape or form in the current experience?
4. Is there a boundary between the body and clothing?
5. Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
6. How many toes do you have?
7. Are you male or female?
8. Do you have a name?
9. Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside – inside of what exactly?
10. If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
11. Where is the I to be found in the body?
12. What does the word/designation ‘body’ actually refer to?
13. Are you missing anything when you experience yourself like this?

📌
Check back to see if you feel an I somewhere….

Do you feel, “I see, I hear….?

Is there a feeling at this moment, “I am reading” – or is it simply being read?

Do you mostly experience, “I stand, I walk, I shower….?”

Do you think?

Do you choose or/and decide what should be done?

Do you feel, “I am responsible for…?”

Are you the body?

Take your time with this 🙂

[denizekindaglar@hotmail.com]

Dear Steffi, these questions are soooo good, I feel like I should do more repetitions of them. For most of them, I have glimpses and realizations when doing them, and some little things are subtly changing in my daily experience. Especially the questions about inside/outside, memory and future, and not having a body gave me glimpses. The problem is, I still have doubts. I can’t remember how different life was before the shift. Life feels very similar to what it was before the shift so much so that I am not even sure if a shift happened…maybe I tricked myself for a few days. Shouldn’t the fetter of doubt also fall? I think I still have doubts about having a shift or not. Is it possible to see through the fetter without a shift?

In my daily experience, there is a sense of “I gotta do something to fix my pain”, the sense of seeking, but I believe this is a mental habit. Before I got into fetterwork, I identified with being an “action taker”, or “hard worker”, that is just a thought that says this is beneficial for me, and it will get me what I want in life. This is very similar to a separate entity being in control, but I think it is not. It feels like the mind and thoughts try to keep me as happy and safe as possible and that’s it, no self required.

Here are my answers to the questions. I did 3 repetitions of all the questions.

– put the glass down what do you see
– what I see is grey glass with vibrating tingling white-gray water particles.
– what can you not see?
– I did not see anything other than those above.
– What about three-dimensionality? Can you see it? Does it look round? What does the opening look like without interpretation? Write it down.
– it is not 3d, it is a shapeshifting 2d picture. the opening looks oval with grey borders. all colors and names are labels, it’s just some grey object. even saying that is just a thought. I think it is impossible to communicate what I exactly see with words
– What is added by thoughts? Write that down too.
– the way I categorized the object as glass, the use cases of it, and the transparency aspect, these are all added by the thoughts, if I remove the thoughts, it’s just an image
– Where do the thoughts come from and where do they go? Wait curiously for the next thought and see.
– I feel like they come from nowhere. Most thoughts disappear instantly without lingering and it feels like they just disappear into nowhere
– Can you predict what thought will come next?
– I think I can have a rough idea about what I will think tomorrow because I will look at certain things, and some thoughts have more emotional weight to me than other thoughts, I can bet that those will appear. But I can’t predict the next thought. if I was able to predict the next thought, I would already be thinking that so it seems impossible. Also, the thought creation machine feels like a black box so I can never guarantee anything
– Can you prevent it from appearing if you don’t like it?
– No, I don’t know what it will be before it appears so I can’t prevent it beforehand
– Can you eliminate a thought once it has appeared?
– No but it dissolves on its own especially if I ignore it and point my focus to my senses like what I see or what I hear
– Can you make the decision NOT to think?
– No.
– Decide to think a particular thought. What happens if you look carefully?
– Yes, this is possible, I can choose to put my attention to the specific thought I want for a while. However, choosing which thought to think is also random so I’m not sure…
– Is the thought “I” a special kind of thought that can think other thoughts? Or does it come from the same place as the other thoughts?
– I feel like there is an observer who can observe how the thoughts interact with each other. This sometimes feels different than a normal thought. I am not even sure, I don’t know what is going on in my mind 🙂
– What can thoughts do?
– they can start up other thoughts and emotions
– Can thoughts perceive anything?
– I feel yes because they take other thoughts as input. They can observe other thoughts. Some thoughts are like “meta thoughts”. When there are 2 conflicting thoughts, there is still a decision being made, and the thought that helps the decision being made perceives these 2 conflicting thoughts and creates an output
– Do you find someone who thinks, or does it all happen by itself, without control by a thinker?
– Thoughts appear and disappear on their own without any outside control
– What is the memory made of?
– just thoughts that are narratives and reflections of senses, like the reflection of a past sound or a past smell
– When does the memory appear?
– Randomly, they arrive just like any other thought
– What exactly is the difference between a “general” thought and a “memory thought”?
– I don’t think there is any difference…feels the same
– What exactly shows that a “memory thought” refers to something that has happened?
– Wow, I couldn’t find anything concrete…but my body still believes that some things happened, it hasn’t stopped believing memories 🙂
– What does the future thought consist of?
– most of them are hopes, fears, anxieties, and plans
– What is the ‘future thought’ made of?
– usually a sentence or a possible picture or movie. sometimes this is accompanied by sensations
– When does the future thought appear?
– usually, they happen when I am all by myself and bored when i am dissatisfied with my current experience such as the anxiety sensation
– What exactly is the difference between a ‘general thought’ and a ‘future thought’?
– Again, I couldn’t find any difference, the future thoughts are usually more emotionally charged but not always.
– From what exactly can it be inferred that the ‘future thought’ refers to something that will happen?
– I think the brain tries to catch patterns and looks at past thoughts + present data then creates future thoughts. of course, no thought will probably be real, but it can be pretty close, and some rough guesses might be right
– Now let us compare a thought of the past with a thought of the future. What exactly is the difference between thoughts about the past and the future? If there is a difference, how is this difference recognized?
– Hmm, past thoughts feel closer to reality, they look clearer as pictures, maybe because I still feel like the past is correct? The future thoughts also feel generally like reflections of past thoughts and emotions, in other words, some future anxieties are the reflection of emotional past thoughts. But this is just the felt sense, I couldn’t find any proof 🙂
– What happens when a choice is made and a decision is made? (The answer is not, there is no I to choose).
– For small and mundane decisions (which I don’t observe the decision-making process, there isn’t even a thought or I don’t even witness the intention being put, it’s just some energetic pull dictating my body and mind like a puppet and I’m the watcher. For complex decisions (which I observe the decision-making process, I can almost feel the contraction of conflicting thoughts in my mind. In conclusion, there are thoughts, sensations, and the body moving. When I look closely, it’s just the brain doing its thing…
– Is the sensation the direct experience of *pain* or the direct experience of a body sensation?
– No, it’s just a sensation.
– What in the pure sensation itself is *pain* or conveys that it *is* painful?
– It usually comes with the thought of “integrity of my body is in danger”, but if I am sure that I am safe, it’s just a blunt and high-pitched sensation and doesn’t actually point to pain
– Is the bodily sensation itself *pleasant* or *unpleasant*?
– Wow, they are not unpleasant…they just are. But maybe an even more intense pain would feel unpleasant, I am not sure that I will be able to handle all sensations 🙂
– Does the body sensation itself convey any information?
– It might point to something that is happening inside the body, it might suggest a warning in a medical sense, or it can inform about the temperature, or any external object touching my body, or making me feel unsafe
– Thoughts about *pain* occur. Can the *pain* itself be found?
– No…
– Is there a direct experience of *pain*?
– No…
– Is a thought aware of a sensation? Is sensation aware of a thought?
– I feel like sensations take part in the thought-creation process, and thoughts take part in the sensation-creation process. I didn’t clearly understand what “thoughts being aware of sensations” meant, but I feel like they can give birth to themselves.
– Is a thought aware of another thought?
– I am not sure, but I feel like yes because a past thought influences another thought
– Can you tell how big the body is? Does the body have a weight or girth?
– If I close my eyes and focus on my sensations, no. No sensation points to size. I think being big can only occur when there is a reference object which is another thought or you should be able to see it. But when I open my eyes, there is a sense of being bigger than some objects.
– Does your body have a shape or form in the current experience?
– When I close my eyes, It’s harder to feel this. Even so, I think I have thoughts about my experience that make it easier to feel like it has form. I think If I was blind from birth, I wouldn’t have the sense of form.
– Is there a boundary between the body and clothing?
– No, there are just sensations where they touch
– Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
– No
– How many toes do you have?
– hahaha, it feels like I have 3 toes 🙂
– Are you male or female?
– :)))))) I have no idea
– Do you have a name?
– No way
– Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside – inside of what exactly?
– No, no inside and outside, it feels like there are 6 7 points of clearly apparent sensations and a softer cloud of sensations. But when I open my eyes, there is a body
– Where is the I to be found in the body?
– I feel like the sensations in my head feel like the center, the eye…even when I close my eyes, I categorize the sensations based upon their distance to the center in my head
– What does the word/designation ‘body’ actually refer to?
– It feels like the matchup of 2 things: what I see with my eyes and the cloud of sensations.
– Are you missing anything when you experience yourself like this?
– No, but it doesn’t last long, the thoughts come back very rapidly, saying that the meat suit cannot possibly be nonexistent, there surely is the body, there are bodies of many other people…I think I want to do this exercise more
– Do you feel, “I see, I hear….?
– Hmm, I cannot control what I see or hear, but I feel like there is something aware of all of the senses…
– Is there a feeling at this moment, “I am reading” – or is it simply being read?
– this is simply being read
– Do you mostly experience, “I stand, I walk, I shower….?”
– no, I mostly don’t feel that, even if I pay attention to it
– Do you think?
– I have no control over thoughts, but there is something that observes the thoughts being born and dying
– Do you choose or/and decide what should be done?
– No
– Do you feel, “I am responsible for…?”
– Not in the way you mean. I think this is an old mental habit of mine that I adopted to keep me away from laziness, so I make myself suffer extra for bad things to motivate myself to strive for good things. I also fear bad outcomes a lot
– Are you the body?
– No…

[Steffi]

denizekindaglar@hotmail.com wrote:

Dear Steffi, these questions are soooo good, I feel like I should do more repetitions of them. For most of them, I have glimpses and realizations when doing them, and some little things are subtly changing in my daily experience. Especially the questions about inside/outside, memory and future, and not having a body gave me glimpses. The problem is, I still have doubts. I can’t remember how different life was before the shift. Life feels very similar to what it was before the shift so much so that I am not even sure if a shift happened…maybe I tricked myself for a few days. Shouldn’t the fetter of doubt also fall? I think I still have doubts about having a shift or not. Is it possible to see through the fetter without a shift?

Dear Deniz! It is not possible to see through the self illusion without a shift. The shift is the seeing through. If there a doubts you have to look more. Could you please describe the shift you may have experienced one more?
Don’t make all the exercises at once. Take one each day until it is clear. Than go to the next one.

And please use the quote funciton 🙂

[denizekindaglar@hotmail.com]

Hi Steffi, sorry for the late response, I was at a Jhana retreat and it has just ended.

The shift is the seeing through. If there are doubts you have to look more. Could you please describe the change you may have experienced one more?

At the time, it felt like I had a shift where I stopped seeing all thoughts as real and started seeing them as just useful recommendations or labels, including past thoughts, future thoughts, the whole story of Deniz, etc…However, I still have a sense of free will. I still feel like I can have a choice about my thoughts. So, it is embarrassing to say that I think there was no shift.

When I carefully look at the sense of self, I can not find it, but it still feels like there must be a sense of autonomy somewhere I am not looking.

[Steffi]

Dear Deniz! Recognizing that thoughts are just thoughts and that YOU are a story, a thought, is the first very important step. Everyone gets to this point in the inquiry and it can feel like a shift to realize this. It feels very relieving, doesn’t it? And then the self sense emerges…. it’s nothing to be embarrassed about. It’s the normal way. I would suggest that you look a little further for the self. Daily 1:1 guiding would be good. You could also try Christiane’s new book: How to see through the self illusion.

[denizekindaglar@hotmail.com]

Dear Steffi,
I would love to have daily 1:1 guidance. I am currently not working just slowly traveling across Asia, so I have the energy and time to allocate to this. Is there a payment for this? In the meantime, I will do the previous exercises you sent me, take care

[Steffi]

Hi Deniz!

This is my guiding offer: https://stromeintritt.org/en/guiding-offer/

Alternatively, take a look at the exercises I sent you and we’ll talk about them in the Open Fetter Group.

> I still have a sense of free will. I still feel like I can have a choice

This is the sense to look at! When you feel that sense of free will, look closer. Where is it? How does it feel exactly? Are there body sensations connected to it? Look at them. Can they do anything?

🙂 Steffi

[denizekindaglar@hotmail.com]

Dear Steffi,

This is the sense to look at! When you feel that sense of free will, look closer. Where is it? How does it feel exactly? Are there body sensations connected to it? Look at them. Can they do anything?

When I look at it, it moves to someplace else, and it feels like this cat and mouse game! I can never catch it.

This is my guiding offer: https://stromeintritt.org/en/guiding-offer/

Yes this is better for me as I am ready to commit. The normal 80 euro fee is affordable for me for a long time. I don’t have a Paypal account because it is banned in Turkey, I would love for you to send me an alternative payment link.

Best!

[Steffi]

Dear Deniz! Could you come over to the chat:
https://matrix.to/#/#stromeintritt:matrix.org

I guide all community members there.

[Autor]

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